MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:26 pm

Amiga keyboard misses some PC keys, and MiST is not Amiga-only emulator. So these 2 empty keys (on US/UK layouts) are very important. Right becomes Right Ctrl, while Left becomes Fn key. Without Fn key you even cannot switch between mouse/jouystick emulations.
There are many offers of UK/US A1200 keyboards on eBay. You can buy a non-working keyboard just to rip key caps from it. Or if you participated in Kickstarter key caps campaign, then choose US layout.

Is this Keyrah2 issue, or MIST Firmware issue - because, there are certainly alternatives to the Keyrah2.

There are no alternatives to Keyrah for using original A1200 keyboard.
All this written is specific to Keyrah only. If you use PC keyboard you won't see any changes.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby kolla » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:22 am

I am sorry, my language is Norwegian and I use Norwegian keyboard layout, the locales on my Amiga setup is also in Norwegian, and those keys are used for shortcuts in Workbench and elsewhere, there is just no way I am "downgrading" to US layout.

On old US/UK Amiga keyboards, those two precious keys are not even present - the Enter key becomes the big reversed L-shaped thing, and the left shift becomes wider, so with a proper US/UK keyboard, one need other solutions anyways - such as plugging in a PC keyboard for those occasions, or a dedicated HID "two buttons" device.

Or use the otherwise typically disabled capslock for swapping between mouse/joystick - bonus feature, the LED can indicate what mode it's in. What on earth relies on a right-ctrl? :)

Alternatives to Keyrah, such as using the keyboard controller from for example an A500 rev5 (, in which the 31 pin A1200 membrane "ribbon" fits (the late A500 has the same thing, only located much to the right), and then use an arduino (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=139358.0) or ezhid (http://ezhid.sourceforge.net/amikbd.html).
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:34 am

kolla wrote:I am sorry, my language is Norwegian and I use Norwegian keyboard layout, the locales on my Amiga setup is also in Norwegian, and those keys are used for shortcuts in Workbench and elsewhere, there is just no way I am "downgrading" to US layout.

I didn't know that US layout is lower grade locale. My language is Russian and i don't have any inconvenience using US-only layout. Especially Amiga today is more like game computer with Workbench as a bonus. I don't see where national keyboards are really need on Amiga today. And most utilities, CLI use only US layout. Your point is too exaggerated.


On old US/UK Amiga keyboards, those two precious keys are not even present - the Enter key becomes the big reversed L-shaped thing, and the left shift becomes wider

Old US layout you are talking about is called ANSI layout. It's old and very rare actually. I never saw A1200 with ANSI keyboard. Most A1200 US/UK keyboards are non-ANSI and have those 2 empty keys near enter and left shift. Commodore always wanted to save the cost, so they use non-ANSI keyboard for all layouts on later Amiga models.

Or use the otherwise typically disabled capslock for swapping between mouse/joystick - bonus feature, the LED can indicate what mode it's in

i prefer full functionality of Amiga keyboard. Mouse/Joystick are shown by NumLock/ScrLock LEDs provided by Keyrah. So caps lock key and led can have their original functions. And there is always chance that some game/app uses caps lock for some specific function.

What on earth relies on a right-ctrl? :)

MiST is not Amiga-only emulator. There are many not less interesting cores. Cores are written with PC keyboard in mind, thus right ctrl is used as well for key emulation missing on PC keyboard. Hence right ctrl must be present in order to use other cores. Fn key is also required to emulate some missing PC keys like F11,F12,ScrLock/NumLock. Also i've added some more functions through Fn for easier usage.

Alternatives to Keyrah, such as using the keyboard controller from for example an A500 rev5 (, in which the 31 pin A1200 membrane "ribbon" fits (the late A500 has the same thing, only located much to the right), and then use an arduino (http://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=139358.0) or ezhid (http://ezhid.sourceforge.net/amikbd.html).

A500 controller is not the thing you can buy easily. Most likely you have to buy a whole A500 keyboard. Together with ezhid/arduino it will be more expensive than Keyrah. But i'm glad there are some alternatives exist. Since Keyrah has problem with some key combination pressed together, this alternative may come handy.
If you will use A500 controller with ezhid/arduino then it will be recognized as generic PC keyboard (not as Keyrah) and you won't have limitation of US-layout.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:45 am

Sorgelig wrote:I don't see where national keyboards are really need on Amiga today. And most utilities, CLI use only US layout. Your point is too exaggerated.


I just had to comment on this... How would you write a Norwegian text using ÆØÅ on a computer without ÆØÅ? I know kolla, he's an Amiga user, not a gamer. I'd be upset if someone decided that I had no need for the correct keyboard layout...
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby christos » Thu Jan 19, 2017 11:50 am

joska wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:I don't see where national keyboards are really need on Amiga today. And most utilities, CLI use only US layout. Your point is too exaggerated.


I just had to comment on this... How would you write a Norwegian text using ÆØÅ on a computer without ÆØÅ? I know kolla, he's an Amiga user, not a gamer. I'd be upset if someone decided that I had no need for the correct keyboard layout...


I totally agree with that sentiment. Even though the greek keyboard layout is essentially the US one, the fact that there is no modern greek encoding for TOS/MiNT annoys me deeply.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:09 pm

Sorgelig wrote:There are no alternatives to Keyrah for using original A1200 keyboard.


The Amiga community is quite strong, I find it strange that nobody has created a solution based on a Teensy or Arduino or something.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:11 pm

If Amiga keyboard would provide more keys, then i would happy to add support for all layouts. The fact is: Amiga has less keys than PC, and there are other cores for MiST requiring PC keys missing on Amiga keyboards. I cannot change this fact.

I just had to comment on this... How would you write a Norwegian text using ÆØÅ on a computer without ÆØÅ? I know kolla, he's an Amiga user, not a gamer. I'd be upset if someone decided that I had no need for the correct keyboard layout...

1) Use generic PC keyboard
2) Use A500 keyboard (or A1200 keyboard with A500 controller) with arduino/ezhid.
3) Use real Amiga computer. Real Amiga fans have real Amiga. PERIOD.

christos wrote:They aren't consoles where you just plug a cartridge.

In the form Amiga exists in MiST it IS console. I repeat: if you are real Amiga fan - buy a real Amiga. I know Amiga community very well, and i'm Amiga fan as well. No one will replace real Amiga with this limited core in MiST if he/she is real fan and especially if Amiga is used more than to play games. Saying "I'm Amiga user, not a gamer" and use MiST which output only in PAL/NTSC mode looks like lying. Who will work in workbench and even use Amiga to write texts in 640x512 resolution?

So, this is longer explanation of my "Your point is too exaggerated."
Last edited by Sorgelig on Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:13 pm

joska wrote:The Amiga community is quite strong, I find it strange that nobody has created a solution based on a Teensy or Arduino or something.

As stated above, if you connect A500 keyboard controller to A1200 keyboard, you will have arduino option. It will be more expensive (if you don't already have a spare A500 keyboard to dissect) But it won't change the fact that Amiga has less keys than PC keyboard.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:43 pm

Sorgelig wrote:If Amiga keyboard would provide more keys, then i would happy to add support for all layouts. The fact is: Amiga has less keys than PC, and there are other cores for MiST requiring PC keys missing on Amiga keyboards. I cannot change this fact.


I don't see the problem. Honestly. If someone wants to use an Amiga keyboard - using a suitable adapter of some sort - with hers/his MIST running the Amiga core, I would expect the Amiga keyboard to function exactly like when connected to a real Amiga. Why shouldn't it?

What "missing" keys does the MIST require? F12 and NumLock? Doesn't one of the MIST buttons bring up the OSD menu as well?

Sorgelig wrote:3) Use real Amiga computer. Real Amiga fans have real Amiga. PERIOD.


If you say so. Still doesn't solve the problem for those that doesn't realise they're not real Amiga fans.

christos wrote:Who will work in workbench and even use Amiga to write texts in 640x512 resolution?


Who will use Amiga for games when there's Playstations?

I have spent many hours programming in DevPac in 640x200 on a colour TV using a real STE the last couple of winters. I must be mad :)
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:49 pm

Sorgelig wrote:As stated above, if you connect A500 keyboard controller to A1200 keyboard, you will have arduino option. It will be more expensive (if you don't already have a spare A500 keyboard to dissect) But it won't change the fact that Amiga has less keys than PC keyboard.


Sounds like a waste. Why would you need an A500 keyboard controller? An Arduino or Teensy is more than capable of reading the keyboard matrix themselves. I'm doing exactly this with a Stacy keyboard.

It would be very easy to solve the F12/NumLock problem too, by using Caps Lock as a modifier key to generate the "missing" keys. Or to swap between keyboard modes.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 12:56 pm

joska wrote:An Arduino or Teensy is more than capable of reading the keyboard matrix themselves.

Of course they can. You only have to find 31pin FPC connector. Good luck with that ;)

joska wrote:It would be very easy to solve the F12/NumLock problem too, by using Caps Lock as a modifier key to generate the "missing" keys. Or to swap between keyboard modes.

Caps Lock is standard PC key and used in other cores. I cannot simply scrap this key from keyboard. MiST is NOT Amiga only.

If you are going with your own (or A500+arduino) keyboard HID emulator, it won't be a Keyrah and there will be no limitations. You will define your own VID/PID and MiST will recognize it as generic PC keyboard.

I simply don't understand why you come to Keyrah topic(in terms of Firmware customization) and complain while you are not going to use Keyrah. Strange.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:08 pm

Sorgelig wrote:Caps Lock is standard PC key and used in other cores. I cannot simply scrap this key from keyboard.


You don't. You add logic that maps CapsLock+F10 (e.g.) to F12, that's it.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:18 pm

joska wrote:You don't. You add logic that maps CapsLock+F10 (e.g.) to F12, that's it.

when you press Caps Lock it's already sent to core, so your logic won't work.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Sorgelig wrote:
joska wrote:You don't. You add logic that maps CapsLock+F10 (e.g.) to F12, that's it.

when you press Caps Lock it's already sent to core, so your logic won't work.


It works. I have already done it with ST keyboards.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:43 pm

It will work only if you won't pass Caps Lock key till it released so you can tell if any other key was pressed and then quickly send press-depress events when caps lock released.
I know this trick, but it won't allow core to use caps lock as generic key. That's why i've said this logic won't work (since this key cannot be used normally).

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:00 pm

Caps Lock down is sent immediately, but if another (specified, not just any) key is pressed and released before Caps Lock is released, another Caps Lock down/up event is sent to effectively cancel the previous Caps Lock. So Caps Lock works exactly as before, unless you use it as a modifier together with a specific key (or set of keys).
Better than removing keyboard functionality I think.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:26 pm

My version above is more cleaner, IMHO. But both logics are acceptable in general case. You always thing like it used in Amiga. Other cores aren't exactly use this key as caps lock.
I don't remove keyboard functionality at all. It will work as genuine ANSI Amiga keyboard. Tell to US/UK ANSI keyboard users they miss functionality. They won't understand you ;)

As i've told above, you can go Arduino/Teensy way and define functionality inside these boards. FW will treat it as PC keyboard and will work with any locale.

Currently, according to this topic, i'm the only who use Keyrah with MiST. New firmware supports per-core INI settings. If there will be real demand, i can add option to disable all Keyrah tweaks, so users will be able use pure Keyrah with that back awkward switch to change the maps :)

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby kolla » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:36 am

I have Keyrah too, and keyboard, just awaiting the new cases. I had hopes to have this system replace the ageing "real" hardware. When people use Keyrah with Amiga keyboard on a system running Amiga OS, they expect it to work as an Amiga keyboard. If your main intention with MIST+Keyrah+Amiga keyboard is _not_ to run AmigaOS and have a fully functional Amiga layout, that is your weird case. The new A1200.net cases come with mounting spots for MIST + Keyrah, and people expect that to work as normal. And, believe it or not, if any of the activity on forums etc are to go by, most Amiga users are _not_ US/UK people.

What I use my MIST for is none of anyone's business, but games is not main activity. I enjoy using mine for music, graphics and animation, as terminal console, various bits of coding, hacking and tinkering - anything you can expect from Amiga users.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby kolla » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:50 am

Sorgelig wrote:In the form Amiga exists in MiST it IS console


No, it is not.

The Amiga console is the CD32, and the Minimig core does not implement the Akiko chip, nor is it even capable of booting from Amiga ISOs directly.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby kolla » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 am

Sorgelig wrote:If there will be real demand, i can add option to disable all Keyrah tweaks, so users will be able use pure Keyrah with that back awkward switch to change the maps :)


Yes, that would be nice, thank you. What is your definition of "real demand"?
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Newsdee » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:46 am

kolla wrote:
Sorgelig wrote:In the form Amiga exists in MiST it IS console


No, it is not.

The Amiga console is the CD32, and the Minimig core does not implement the Akiko chip, nor is it even capable of booting from Amiga ISOs directly.

CD32 games seem to work though. But they are in WHLoad format, perhaps it worked on both systems originally.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:11 am

Newsdee wrote:CD32 games seem to work though. But they are in WHLoad format, perhaps it worked on both systems originally.

WHDLoad app provides some level of emulation. CD32 has Akiko chip providing chunk color mode. So WHDLoad adds emulation for this chip.

kolla wrote:What is your definition of "real demand"?

real users, not hypothetical.
Anyway, option to disable Keyrah customization is already implemented.

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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Sorgelig » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:19 pm

New Amiga USB keyboard:
P_20170212_041359.jpg

A500 controller + Arduino Micro.
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby joska » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:24 pm

Nice and tidy :)
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Re: MiST inside Amiga 1200 case with keyboard.

Postby Newsdee » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:00 am

Sorgelig wrote:New Amiga USB keyboard:
P_20170212_041359.jpg
A500 controller + Arduino Micro.

So this is a replacement for the Keyrah? How much cheaper is it?


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