Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

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EmpireAndrew
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Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:07 am

What do I need to connect my STE to the Framemeister?

I assume there is no way of using the Best Electronics VGA cable (VGA to Framemeister?) so do I need to source a Euroscart for the STE and a Euroscart to XRGB 8 pin DIN cable?

I notice this says their SCART cable is not compatible with the Framemeister:
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/ata ... le-tv-lead

But they don't say why... :shrug:

I note the ST can output HSync and VSync seperately, but the RGB Scarts tend to use Composite sync instead.

Does the Framemeister want the seperate HSync and VSync? :contract:
If so how do the old consoles work on it as they don't output seperate H and VSync to my knowledge.

Or does the Framemeister need the sync stripping out? :shrug:
If so I don't see why I can't use the ST RGB (likely composite sync) SCART cable above with this sync stripper cable for the Framemeister from the very same people? But if so why don't they say that? :contract:

I'm confused... :shrug:
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Aug 23, 2016 5:32 pm

RetroGaming.co.uk are very quick to reply to emails (top marks!) and they re-tested their STFM via a SCART cable to their Framemeister for me and confirm it doesn't work, but they will try their Syncstripper SCART cable next.

But in this video the guy has it working (somehow) with a cable he got from them so I'm still confused:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR5mSnhrVqo
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby Cogweasel » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:05 pm

I have been considering a Framemeister myself, for my ST and other devices as well... but its a bit of a mess trying to figure out how to do it. I think I read that the SCART input on the Framemeister isn't following the European standard, but the Japanese?!? I really don't know for sure, but I think I read that you need cables following the Japanese SCART standard... I didn't even know SCART was used in Japan...

If you do manage to figure it out, please post here again ... would love to get some more insight into this :)

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:31 pm

OK, I have an answer...

The Framemeister RGB input cable is a SCART.
However it is wired differently than a European SCART, so it's Japanese SCART if you will.
So if you buy a Framemeister you also need a EUROSCART (Female) input cable for it.
retrogamingcables.co.uk sell them.

However, you also need a sync stripper, so make sure you buy the Sync Stripper version of said input cable from retrogamingcables.

For the ST you need a resistor of some sort on the sync pin of the SCART cable.
Robert at retrogamingcables figured it out this morning.

He also figured out you need the sync stripping cable.
So I just ordered both.

So in summary:

ST -> EuroSCART cable with resistor mod on sync pin -> EuroSCART to Framemeister cable with built in sync stripper -> Framemeister.


If ordering the SCART cable from retrogamingcables be sure to put a note during checkout that you want one with the XRGB Mini resistor mod.

I note this resistor mod may be present on other ST SCART cables from other sources or it may not, I don't know...
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:32 pm

Note, I haven't tried it for myself yet, but he said it worked on their STFM.

I'll post again when I can confirm if it works on my STE.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby Cogweasel » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:57 am

Ah ok, so it was the Scart wiring that was different. Cool that you got it sorted! Please post back when you get it working ... good luck!
BTW where did you buy your Framemeister? I just checked some prices and it seems the prices have gone up a bit since last I checked ...

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:59 am

Amazon. And yeah it seems about 10% more than the figures I'd seen, $380 or so vs $350.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby vizfizz » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:03 am

Yep... the connector cable used by the Framemeister is a JP-21 cable. Looks like EURO SCART but wired differently. How annoying.

My understanding was all you needed was one of these

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/eur ... r-for-sale

Add an Atari RGB to EuroScart cable and you are in business... but you're saying we need this instead?

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/eur ... amemeister

Interesting.

What would be nice would be if someone could make a Atari RGB 13 pin din to JP-21 connector and bypass the whole SCART thing entirely.

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:44 am

That's what I was told by that site, the 2nd link you posted AND a modified version of their Atari monitor to SCART cable.

I now have it working, and it works really well.

Adding scanlines using the option on the Framemeister really looks much better than the clean display you normally get on an LCD.

However to look convincing AND scale correctly you need to output from the Framemeister at 480p or 720p and ensure your monitor doesnt do any further scaling. I did however get strange issues in Microprose Grand Prix where the billboards for example in solid dark blue would get double thickness scanlines, odd. But it works flawlessly at 480p.

I wanted this for video capture into my HDMI capture card so I capture at 480p with scanlines, and then double up the footage in Premiere.
I had to spend a some time fiddling with the brightness, contrast and gamma settings to get the saturation and brightness up, but now it looks pretty much perfect. Very pleased!
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby vizfizz » Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:20 am

Please post some examples. I'm considering picking up a Framemeister and I want the best picture. Being in the US, getting these specialty cables is more difficult considering we don't use SCART over here. I wonder how much it costs to ship to California? What was your cost to New York?

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:13 pm

I bought the cables from retrogamingcables in the UK.
The sync stripping Scart input cable for the Framemeister and the Scart output cable for the ST (be sure to specify that is has the Framemeister resistor mod on it) and tracked international delivery (3-5 days iirc) came to about $58 total.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Cogweasel
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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby Cogweasel » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:28 pm

EmpireAndrew: Thanks for lettings us know how things are going. I am really tempted to buy one, even if really should invest in other tech that I need more :) ... Does anyone know where you can buy one in Europe, excluding Amazon?

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby EmpireAndrew » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:13 am

Here is a test capture I did using an Elgato Game Capture HD60 Pro via the Framemeister.

In this instance the Framemeister is getting the 240p signal from the ST and doubling it up to 480p while adding fake scan lines.
I could have had it triple the res to 720p but that wouldn't be big enough (and 1080p with scanlines doesn't look right) so I took the 480p footage and double that up to 960 pixels high in Adobe Premiere and overlaid it on a 1080p background, the theory being that I would have some kind of artwork and info surrounding it.

Obviously if you don't watch it at 1080p on an appropriate screen your browser may resize the video such that the scan lines are not even, so watch it on youtube, set the quality to 1080p and watch it full screen, ideally on a 1080p panel.

1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/64MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
Amiga, Mac, DOS, Newton, SGI, Sun, NeXTStation and more!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby vizfizz » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:43 am

That looks fantastic. I'm sold!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby Cogweasel » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:57 pm

That does look nice indeed!

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Re: Calling XRGB Mini Framemeister users!

Postby IngoQ » Tue May 09, 2017 11:47 am

Hi,

In addition for anyone considering a Framemeister for his/her Atari ST(E) or basically any other system:

I recently found out, that the image adjustment range of the framemeister depends on the resolution of the connected display. I used a Dell 20" TFT via DVI (Dell 2007) with a native resolution of 1920x1200 Pixels. Although the Framemeister can use this resolution in full, you won't be able to allways position the image centered and full screen.

I often read, that the Framemeister only uses 1080 lines, even if connected to a display capable of showing more. But since I was able to position the image at the extreme top and botton of the display, this seems not to be the case. At least not any more, maybe it was resolved in one of the latest firmware versions.

But nevertheless the Framemeister was appearantly made to use 1080p resolutions as maximum, so when using higher resolutions you will have to compromise on adjustment range.

In lack of a spare 1080p display I now use a 19" Display with 1280x1024 and 5:4 aspect ratio (Dell 1907) with my framemeister. It gives me a lot of adjustment range and I have been able to scale the input signal to fullscreen in most cases without using the zoom. When I use the zoom I like to enlarge the screen area within the overscan, when the screen content is small and does not use the overscan area. This gives a better immersion in games but of course in apps as well.

Although the framemeister theoretically can accept a 31kHz VGA signal on its RGB-Input (when you combine H/V-SYNC to CSYNC) , it is not officially supported. I experienced crashes and distorted image on it, so this is no option for ST HiRes. The advantage of using a 1280x1024 Display is, that you can directly connect the ST to its VGA-input, and it can simply line double the 640 horizontal pixels to 1280. When applying the line doubling to the vertical resolution, you end up with 800 lines used and 224 left empty and a very crisp image.

On a sidenote: The 50% gray default background in highres is perfect for letting the display autoadjust on the signal. Whenever you have to adjust a display or your framemeister, I recommend of doing so by using a 50% gray background. The interferences show clearly when you approach integer scaling.

The disadvantage of using a (cheap) monitor, or at least most of them: They will most likely only be capable of displaying 60Hz. When you are on a PAL machine (50Hz) or using HiRes (70Hz) either the display or the Framemeiste will have to do a framerate conversion. The Framemeister is really good at this, but nevertheless you will never have perfectly smooth horizontal scrolling.
Ingo :coffe:

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.” - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


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