MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

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MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:46 pm

I finally got around to doing a full wipe of my TT and a first time ever Mint install so coming at it with fresh eyes I have a few observations...

I initially decided not to use EasyMint etc and followed this guide here:
http://thebigconsultant.com/probe/sw-mintinstall.html
(actually it was at sites.google.com under probehouse but it seems to be down today).

Now this mostly worked. Could be clearer in places but overall, it *nearly* got the job done.
I was ok until I got to the UNIX part, which seemingly worked except wen I went to use tcsh I got a can't find TTY error, no prompt, and while it would accept commands, it clearly had a path issue as I had to fully quality any command. Tried various paths, tried overloading path with virtually every possible path on the system but still no luck Googled and noticed someone else had this issue previously but the replies were the usual helpful "check your path" and other, I'll be generous and say pointers, but no suggestions of what the path might be.
Spent way too long trying to get it to work, gave up. Installing something from scratch on a totally clean and stock system (no non standard video card etc) should be easy. If not the documentation is lacking. At work if an engineer was given such an install guide to follow the change would be marked as "failed" and someone would be in trouble for insufficiently checking it... It's a shame as generally the guide is pretty good.


So I decided to wipe everything and start from scratch with EasyMint as I had seen so many forum posts suggesting it.
This was worse. WAY worse.
No documentation at all on the site that I could see, an important.txt that also didn't actually provide any guidance.
OK, I'll wing it...
So I copy the whole smash over, run the installer and of course it's in German.
Quit that, spot a language.eng file and language.lng file so I rename the .eng to .lng and what was .lng is now .de
Restart the installer, yay, I can understand the prompts!
Follow them through, deciding to go with XaAES, it looks good, then it reboots and I'm supposed to continue.
It drops me to the Thing Desktop, which is in German. And there are a bunch of file icons on the desktop with nonsensical names and no drive icons.
I finally figure out how to find the original drive and installer, run it and the setup continues.
Aside from instructions on how to run the whole thing in English, we're good...
It finishes, reboots, and near the end of initial boot there are some errors (I forget what, basically couldn't find stuff) and it dumps me to a limited shell. Total fail.


So I decide to try VanillaMint.
There is a small readme telling you where to copy the stuff they give you to download (which although in 1 big file is separated inside to separate floppy sized chunks, big brownie points there).
I follow the guide, I set the video mode, and voila, it's all up and working. I even get my NetUSBee working right away.
Top marks, pass go and collect $200, take a bow, the people behind VanillaMint rock.

Now, I'm assuming it's out of date and I'm assuming given the size of it I'm missing the UNIX stuff?
But no matter. It works and the installation was simple and clearly documented. A big thumbs up.


At some point I'll figure out the raw install myself and document it (shouldn't complain unless willing to actually do better myself) but for now, I'm going to just explore it as I haven't used MiNT since Atari very first released it and that was on a 4MB STE...
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:26 pm

Thanks for trying out the manual way of getting Mint on your system.
The idea was to teach you to fish by going through the nuts and bolts.
Sure it is much easier to just get someone to give you fish.

If you known how to fish then you would have known the solution to the PATH issue.
The solution is on the 1st page of the mirror, which is just a setenv statement with the correct PATH parameters.
But I suspect that most likely your folder structure is wrong.

Someone whacked my page at Google sites, so Google took it down. Been using it for years, and so I am not sure why they found some violation.
My guess is something to do with the new administration, just like the company I am working with. They had business with US companies for over 15 years and this year suddenly the contracts are cancelled. Again for no apparent reasons.

Well nothing's for free.

I haven't seen the old webpage design for so long, I really liked the wavy blue side panel. pity that I can't get that at Google sites.
Last edited by wongck on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby joska » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:30 pm

EmpireAndrew wrote:Top marks, pass go and collect $200, take a bow, the people behind VanillaMint rock.


Thank you for the kind words, but I think it's a bit unfair towards EasyMiNT because - despite of it's name - it's a lot more complex than VanillaMiNT.

EmpireAndrew wrote:Now, I'm assuming it's out of date and I'm assuming given the size of it I'm missing the UNIX stuff?


Correct. VanillaMiNT is all about user-friendliness and multitasking GEM-stuff. There is no command line and no unix-stuff at all in there. If that's what you need then you need to take another look at EasyMiNT.

Btw I won't consider VanillaMiNT outdated. There has been very little development on MiNT/XaAES for several years.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby Trixster » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:47 pm

EmpireAndrew, I feel your pain, my experience of trying to get mint setup is pretty much identical. Plus I tried MagiC6.2 as well first. I've gone back to TOS for the time being until I have time to have another go. Thing is, I get the impression you kind of have to have stuff like xboot already setup ready for it so you can dual-boot before you embark on MiNT and/or MagiC, and I've only just installed Simple-Boot for that.

Stuff in German, weird post-install unix errors, random crashes. I'm a noob to atari stuff but I'm not a noob to setting up old systems but I have to say they don't make it easy in the Atari world for the newcomers!

I'll wait for Joska to update his VanillaMint setup to incorporate 060 stuff! Please Joska!
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby joska » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:49 pm

Trixster wrote:I'll wait for Joska to update his VanillaMint setup to incorporate 060 stuff! Please Joska!


My CT60e arrived today. Now I just need the other bits...
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby mpattonm » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Well, I failed to setup MINT so many times I simply gave up and I am not going to try again. Ever. While I don't consider myself a genius, boy I am not retard either.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 pm

EmpireAndrew wrote:At some point I'll figure out the raw install myself and document it


That would be very helpful.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:02 pm

joska wrote:
EmpireAndrew wrote:Top marks, pass go and collect $200, take a bow, the people behind VanillaMint rock.


Thank you for the kind words, but I think it's a bit unfair towards EasyMiNT because - despite of it's name - it's a lot more complex than VanillaMiNT.

Oh indeed.
In fact I was impressed with the GUI installer for EasyMint and I knew it was doing a lot.
But at the end of the day it didn't work. Now, it might have worked if there was a guide to it, there wasn't, at least not that I could find.

Someone took the time to write instructions for VanillaMint and the exact process listed is what I followed and voila, it worked.
All the clever coding in the world is useless with documentation for the end user.
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1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:16 pm

wongck wrote:Thanks for trying out the manual way of getting Mint on your system.
The idea was to teach you to fish by going through the nuts and bolts.
Sure it is much easier to just get someone to give you fish.


I agree. I don't want the fish, I want to know how to fish.

But I followed the document steps and ended up with something that didn't work.
Now... the doc iirc referred to 1.17.cur and I am using a newer version, maybe something changed?
On top of that I installed to drive E not drive D. (I have a TOS partition I wanted to keep on D).
But of course any references to D I changed to E, no big deal.

wongck wrote:If you known how to fish then you would have known the solution to the PATH issue.


If I knew how to fish I wouldn't need a fishing guide.

At the moment the guide, great as it is, tells me I need to use BAIT.
I don't catch any fish, and when asking (and other ppl have asked the same previously) I'm told the problem is the BAIT, check the BAIT.
But I don't know what the fish wants to eat so I'm just putting different things on the end of the hook that I think it might like, which it doesn't.
The teacher should tell me what bait to use and why. That's teaching.

If the PATH parameter as default is wrong, then the doc needs to explain:
1. Where to set it
2. Why it needs to be changed
3. What to set it to.

That's teaching.
The document is great, don't get me wrong, but it's missing a step and it needs clarifying.
There are several replies on this post (and others) where people haven't got it working.
Therefore we should adjust the documentation to clarify. That's good process.

wongck wrote:The solution is on the 1st page of the mirror, which is just a setenv statement with the correct PATH parameters.
But I suspect that most likely your folder structure is wrong.


Maybe, but I put stuff where the guide told me, with the exception of the partition being E not D.
The solution is not there. I followed every single step carefully. What are the correct PATH parameters?

wongck wrote:I haven't seen the old webpage design for so long, I really liked the wavy blue side panel. pity that I can't get that at Google sites.


Yeah it does look nice. Is it an older version of what was on Google?
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby trecool » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:36 pm

I faced the same issues with EmpireAndrew.
wongck has done a great job with his tutorial and his whole webpage has great stuff. It definitely took lot of efford and for sure it gives the idea whats mint about.
But at some point it comes to a deadend.
It must be something with the kernel versions and i guess some minor things have to be done differently.
Sorry but i couldn't make it... i would say its not up to date.

VanillaMint is a different story (no unix tools etc) but you can have a Mint Atari in seconds! Great job joska!

I also installed EasyMint a couple of weeks ago and exept some translation files there is nothing to worry about. It really easy despite some comments i read.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:44 pm

I agree, wongck deserves huge props for the guide, like I said, I was nearly there...
But after wasting a whole day on it, then some more time on starting again with EasyMint, then starting from scratch yet again with Vanilla, enough is enough.
I will play with it on Vanilla, then look at starting again from scratch and document as I go. I'll use wongck's docs as a guideline for it.
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby DarkLord » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:13 pm

I remember the first time I installed some form of MINT. I believe it was KGMD? Probably
got those letters wrong, it's been so long... I believe it was the husband/wife team (Karen?)
who talked me through it (lots of e-mail exchanges).

I've got N.AES and MINT on my Falcon now. Been there literally for a decade.

I swear, if I had to go back and reinstall it I'd probably cry. It literally is like crawling
through broken glass naked, IMHO.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby joska » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:25 pm

DarkLord wrote:I remember the first time I installed some form of MINT. I believe it was KGMD? Probably
got those letters wrong, it's been so long...


You remember correctly, it was KGMD - Knarf's German MiNT Distribution. There was also an English translation called KEMD done by "kellis" (Katherine Ellis?). I installed KGMD in 1995 I think, and used it with N.AES until 2007 or so.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby DarkLord » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:36 pm

The Ellis's! Yep, pretty sure that was them, a husband and wife team.

IIRC, when you were done with the installation you were left with a text
only setup, no GUI at first.

Thanks for the info. :)
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby vido » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:47 pm

Just to mention. There was MiNT 98 CD - distribution. I think I got it together with N.AES when I bought it or with the Milan computer.
My first MiNT distribution was KGMD with Kellis translation. After that I used MiNT98 distribution almost a decade.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby TheNameOfTheGame » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:54 pm

I want to put MiNT on my Hades060, but honestly it is intimidating from all I hear. So MagiC stays on it lol. Be nice to have an up-to-date documented walk-through.

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby lp » Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:57 pm

My first install was KGMD with translation by kellis and he was on IRC in real-time cheering me on. Yes, I said he, as kellis was actually Fred on his wife's account. I'm still in contact with Fred aka kellis. ;)

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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:45 pm

Thanks for pointing out areas of improvements. Really appreciate that.
As English is not my native language, please excuse my sentences constructions, grammatical and spelling errors in the guide.
I did test out the steps several times on my Falcon and TT using a fresh empty HDD. I know how frustrating it is when it does not work.
The guide was 1st done before 2010 and last update was at least 5 years back or so. The mint distribution have changed a bit, and I had to yet update it.

EmpireAndrew wrote:But I followed the document steps and ended up with something that didn't work.
Now... the doc iirc referred to 1.17.cur and I am using a newer version, maybe something changed?
On top of that I installed to drive E not drive D. (I have a TOS partition I wanted to keep on D).
But of course any references to D I changed to E, no big deal.


Well, that's my first guess that your folder structure is incorrect.
May be it is exactly the drive letter, I do not know unless I see it.

EmpireAndrew wrote:If you known how to fish then you would have known the solution to the PATH issue.

If the PATH parameter as default is wrong, then the doc needs to explain:
1. Where to set it
2. Why it needs to be changed
3. What to set it to.

That's teaching.


Well, it is not a Unix tutorial, so that's why it's not specifying in that amount of details what each environment variable does.
Explaining every single detail will not be in a couple of web pages.

As with learning, one needs to go to various other resources.

EmpireAndrew wrote:Yeah it does look nice. Is it an older version of what was on Google?

No that was on 110MB which was a free site that was badly managed. Not sure if it resolved their management issues now.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:09 am

I don't expect an explanation of every item, it's not necessary to get the system working, but it seems PATH is critical and the default value isn't correct. I of course know what a PATH variable is, but I can't figure out what it wants in this one. I had the stuff on U (e.g. /bin) linked to their equivalent on E. The only part I wasn't clear on was why it could not find tty, which I assume it access as u:/dev ? And it's there...
I will try again at some point and hopefully hook up the TT to a video capture card.

I had no trouble with your English in the guide.
Maybe I did have the incorrect folder structure. When it failed to work I re-read the guide and checked each step twice more so I'm fairly confident I didn't mess up.
Luckily I only really want GEM multi tasking so Vanilla Mint worked for my case.

I just need to figure out why CAB isn't working it it...
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:36 am

So I've narrowed down the issue with CAB to images.
If I load a HTML file locally, which references an image, it all works as expected.

Over the network though it loads the page, formats the HTML and displays it, then tries to fetch the image, gets a few KB and then hangs saying the server timed out...

I'm using the CAB.OVL by Dan somebody or other, the one I have by Oliver won't even fetch the HTML, it just says the server connection timed out...
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1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby christos » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:45 am

I think I can guess why your easymint install failed. You probably didn't create an LNX partition with HDDriver. Easymint won't work without an ext2 partition.
I say this because easymint failed on me a few times before I discovered this. Every time after that, all installs went perfectly.
EDIT: Cancel that, I reread more carefully.

For your network issue, which ethernet driver are you using? I've found the driver provided with MiNT to be less than optimal, I'd try the Assemsoft driver.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:41 pm

my site seems to be back online now.
https://sites.google.com/site/probehous ... lling-mint

So I read some of the text and figured that this stuff is newer than the stuff on 110MB.

I like 110MB because it does not restrict you to their site HTML editor & their standard of webpages.
So you can upload your own raw HTML to it, which I did.
In doing so you can stick to standard HTML that will work with CAB & Highwire etc.

but their management was bad, at times I cannot get in to edit the site.
Then it was going down a lot.
So I moved to another free supplier.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:10 pm

christos wrote:I think I can guess why your easymint install failed. You probably didn't create an LNX partition with HDDriver. Easymint won't work without an ext2 partition.
I say this because easymint failed on me a few times before I discovered this. Every time after that, all installs went perfectly.
EDIT: Cancel that, I reread more carefully.

For your network issue, which ethernet driver are you using? I've found the driver provided with MiNT to be less than optimal, I'd try the Assemsoft driver.
http://assemsoft.atari.org/


Thanks!

I'll give that one a go.
I was using ENE3.MIF renamed XIF, from the etherne.zip link on this page:
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=73
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby wongck » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:37 pm

If you don't need the Unix stuff then it is very simple to install Mint.
Just a folder and some files in the correct place on your HDD will do.
Once you play around with it you will laugh at how simple it is.
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Re: MINT: We don't make this easy do we?

Postby EmpireAndrew » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:46 pm

I don't need the UNIX stuff really.
I just wanted to multi task GEM stuff.
Mainly so I can have a web browser open at the same time as a text editor and FTP program.

I was also wondering if the web browser would work faster under a multi tasking environment, although unlikely given that jpeg decoding really tasks these old machines...
1977 VCS Heavy Sixxer (Boxed)
1990 Atari 1040STE, 4MB, UltraSatan, TOS 2.06, TT Touch -> Atari SC1435 Colour CRT Monitor
1991 Atari TT030, 2/16MB, Int 8GB Gigafile SCSI2CF, TOS 3.06, CaTTamaran Accelerator -> Atari TTM195 19" Mono CRT Monitor
1993 Atari Falcon030, 14MB, Int 4GB IDE2SD, TOS 4.04 -> Atari PTC1426 Color CRT Monitor
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